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Tue, Jan. 24th, 2006, 12:36 am Left or Right Nonsense

In a previous post I complained about how our political views get represented as a simple left/right choice  while the actual distribution of views among people is more like this:  Even that complicated picture oversimplifies. Most people are in the center of the graph, and all of the viewpoints mentioned are divided by other issues--foreign policy, eminent domain, abortion, gay marriage--so we'd really need a 5 to 10 dimensional graph to respresent how our views are distributed. But let's stick with this one for now. So here's the question: With so many different points of view, why do we have a two party system?When it comes time for voting we wind up sorting people like this:  Everyone votes for the candidate closer to their own view. So no matter what you actually believe, voting winds up endorsing one of the two "regular" ideologies. The line-up isn't always the same. If the Republicans run someone closer to the Theocrat or Paleocon corner instead of a straight conservative, he'll lose the votes of libertarians while picking up those of socialists (ie, Catholics in hardline unions). But no matter how the line gets drawn we get two factions holding everyone in them. So why don't we have a third party? It's been tried. Ross Perot took a good shot at making one in 1992. But his group quickly dwindled down to the same irrelevance as the Libertarian Party. Same thing happened to George Wallace and Strom Thurmond's Dixiecrat factions, and Teddy Roosevelt's Bull Moose party before that. A new party can take hold, such as Lincoln's Republicans, but that only happens when one of the old parties (Whigs in that case) goes away. This is a function of our electoral system. Duverger's Law says that any "First past the post" system (where the candidate with the most votes wins the only seat) will naturally have only two parties. Candidates will compete for 51% of the vote and shape their platform to attrack the crucial "swing voters" in the middle. Voters will look at the candidates and want to avoid wasting their vote. If their favorite candidate isn't going to win they'll vote for their 2nd choice to prevent the one they like least from winning. So in theory our elections should concentrate on pleasing the few percent of voters in the center. There's some of that--the 2000 bidding war for prescription drug insurance was all about swing voters--but we're getting lots of elected officials who are moving to the extremes. The problem is we don't have a single-election system. The first hurdle is the primaries or an equivalent nomination process. This is totally dominated by the core voters on each side, the liberals and conservatives in the diagram above. People with other viewpoints are much less likely to win the internal contests, so they aren't committed enough to put in the work necessary to be part of the primaries. The centrists are even more removed--they usually couldn't even decide which party's primary to participate in. So instead of getting two candidates who are close to the center ideologically, we often have two extremists. The farther apart the candidates are, the nastier the election will be. It's much worse to have an extremist of the other side in power than a moderate so partisans are more motivated to fight for their side. That also provides a motive to paint the opponent as more extreme than he is.   One side effect is that moderate voters get driven away by this nastiness. 1992 was one of the few presidential elections to have an increase in voter turnout because Perot offered an alternative. When it went back to the usual two options those voters didn't come back. Gerrymandering makes all this ever worse, because it slants the elections to ensure whoever wins the primary wins the general election. Legislators wind up picking their voters instead of the other way around, so the situation gets frozen in place until it the voters change their minds drastically. Is there a cure for all this? I think so, but that'll have to be a different post.
Tue, Jan. 24th, 2006 08:35 am (UTC)
faxpaladin
The centrists are even more removed--they usually couldn't even decide which party's primary to participate in.Often because the candidate they back in one race is in a different primary that the candidate they back in another race. Not to mention that in places like where I live, a lot of the local races are decided in the Democratic primary -- no Republican to run against -- while many of the statewide races are decided in the GOP primary, since the Dems aren't bothering to run anybody statewide. And then there's the issue that if you're backing, say, Kinky for governor, voting in any primary disqualifies you from signing the petition to qualify him for the November ballot as an independent. Tue, Jan. 24th, 2006 03:40 pm (UTC)
libertarianhawk

The last is a real issue for me. I have a strong interest in one of the local primaries (state rep) but I'd also like to support getting Kinky on the ballot. I may be doing some serious agonizing over it come election day. Tue, Jan. 24th, 2006 01:03 pm (UTC)
xinef
This is a function of our electoral system. Duverger's Law says that any "First past the post" system (where the candidate with the most votes wins the only seat) will naturally have only two parties.Then how do you explain Canada? We also have a "first past the post system" and have just elected our second consecutive minority government. We have 4 strong parties (ok, 3 strong and 1 middling) with representatives elected to Ottawa! It can work. Tue, Jan. 24th, 2006 03:49 pm (UTC)
libertarianhawk

Canada definitely doesn't match that theory--it's in the "counterexamples" in the link above. OTOH, the Conservatives didn't win until after they merged from the Alliance and the Progressive Conservative parties, which is an argument in favor of the theory. I suspect Quebec keeping its separate identity may outweigh the pressures of FPTP. Tue, Jan. 24th, 2006 07:25 pm (UTC)
xinef

But Canada has had a three or four party system for decades. Two dominant parties, for most of our history, along with a number of other parties which have been significant enough to get MPs elected. There hasn't been a single parliament as far back as I can remember which had MPs from only two parties. There have always been at least 3 or 4 in play, and sometimes 5. Not counting independents! Tue, Jan. 24th, 2006 09:37 pm (UTC)
kd5mdk

There's a difference between "getting MPs elected" and important. The UK has had up to half a dozen parties or more at a time, I think (Churchill actually ran as a "Constitutionalist" once when he was in bad favor with the Conservatives, but no longer a Liberal), but aside from their equivilent of the Bloc (that is, the Irish parties) they've never had more than 2 important for more than one election. As soon as Labour came to prominence, the Liberals collapsed. Tue, Jan. 24th, 2006 10:04 pm (UTC)
xinef

There are a number of differences, however, when there are more than two parties in play. It is possible for a vote split between two parties to allow the delegate from the third to actually be elected. This has happened not infrequently in Canadian elections, especially when the right was split between the old Progressive Conservative party and the old Alliance party. Also, having more than 2 parties in play allows for minority governments. In that case, the smaller third party can hold the balance of power and have a much stronger influence than would be expected by the number of seats. Again, this has happened on a number of occasions in Canada, going back several decades. It is true that the Bloc and Quebec politics makes Canadian politics unique! They elect enough MPs to be a serious force, in fact were "Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition" not all that long ago. How is that for ironic! In effect, they pull out some 50 +/- seats from the total, leaving the remainder up for grabs for everyone else, and making a majority that much harder to achieve. They are unlikely to ever join in a formal coalition, but will help support minority governments as long as the issues suit them. They very definitely warp Canadian politics and are likely to continue to do so for a long time, assuming that separatism referenda never get the 50% they need to proceed with separation. Tue, Jan. 24th, 2006 10:59 pm (UTC)
xinef

I agree that only two parties have ever formed the goverment in Canada. But winning isn't everything. The NDP has had great influence in Ottawa, despite never having formed the government. The Bloc has had a large influence, too, although, in my opinion, not as positive as the NDP! So I don't think it is the same thing as Perot or Wallace in the US. Not only do they not get elected, they end up having little influence once the election is over. They drop out of sight between elections. Our third and fourth parties certainly do not drop out of sight! Wed, Jan. 25th, 2006 05:07 pm (UTC)
libertarianhawk
But winning isn't everything.That may be the key difference between American and Canadian voters. Or possibly between the politicians--the 2nd place party tends to get a raw deal in our legislatures. I'd imagine 3rd/4th place parties would have much less influence here than in Canada the way things are structured now. Wed, Jan. 25th, 2006 05:28 pm (UTC)
xinef

You're probably right. Very different forms of government. The NDP has had a lot more influence here than would be obvious from the number of MPs elected at any given time. In various minority governments, it was NDP influence that helped get our Medicare program, national pension plan, etc. passed. And the most seats they've had (as far as I recall) is 43 out of a varying total, but over 200. Never been the governing party, never been the official opposition. Tue, Jan. 24th, 2006 10:13 pm (UTC)
libertarianhawk
It is true that the Bloc and Quebec politics makes Canadian politics unique!I wonder if the biggest effect of the Bloc is to show minority voters that they needn't fear "wasting their vote." That tends to cripple American 3rd parties when they reach election day. Tue, Jan. 24th, 2006 11:04 pm (UTC)
xinef

It takes persistence and a real sense of injustice to get another party active and viable. The Reform party was started in Alberta and was around for quite some time before managing to elect a single MP to Ottawa. But they stuck with it and they grew. Eventually, they were semi-national (in all provinces but Quebec). At that point, they ran into problems of vote splitting with the Progressive Conservative party, which was decimated after the Mulroney era. The PCs never managed to recuperate from that disaster and eventually merged with the Alliance party (I forget who the Reform allied with to become the Alliance party). Then there are those of us who still think of the current Conservative party as the old Reform party just with a new name. I don't think it has changed much and is still pretty much as right wing as it used to be. This parliament will show me how right (or not) I am. Tue, Jan. 24th, 2006 01:12 pm (UTC)
noumignon
No good sourcing or even Google search terms, but I believe mathematical research on politicians holds the one-dimensional model works pretty well and there's not a strong need for a second axis to explain everything. And even when they find an axis that's orthogonal to the liberal-conservative axis they have trouble mapping it into anything real-world like religion. Did I post this here already? Like if you were making a best fit curve to a line that looked like ----------_-----------_--- you might just model it as a straight line instead of finding a y-axis, that's what I thought was happening. Tue, Jan. 24th, 2006 04:01 pm (UTC)
libertarianhawk

I haven't see that, and I'd like to. I've seen a counterexample. There's a researcher doing mapping of British parliamentarians, though he's just looking at relative agreement rather than assigning any specific value to the axes. http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mpsee.php Tue, Jan. 24th, 2006 04:14 pm (UTC)
noumignon
OK, with the memory jog of your link I found my little Slate article. Found the archive.org link to the animated graphic he's discussing too. Your link I'll check later, must sleep. Tue, Jan. 24th, 2006 04:39 pm (UTC)
libertarianhawk

Interesting. I'll want to go through that in more depth when I get the chance. I think the key quesiton is whether the one-dimensional quality is inherent to politics or a product of the filtering I discussed above. Wed, Feb. 1st, 2006 08:58 pm (UTC)
noumignon
The Java in this link didn't work for me but I did find a very true quote.
"In practice, influencing opinions are far easier for many politicians and vested interests to do, particularly for ones not immediately in power, than to make changes to reality." Tue, Jan. 24th, 2006 01:36 pm (UTC)
rjlippincott
So here's the question: With so many different points of view, why do we have a two party system?Because the two parties have a vested interest in keeping it that way. My opinion (and I could be wrong) is that the two major parties have both realized "It's better to be in last-place in a two-party system than it is to be in fourth place in a five-party system." And thus what has happened for generations is that we've had beaten into us the concept of a "two party system." We've grown up with it, we learn about it in school, the pundits all tell us this is the way it should be, and we've come to think of it as natural. All this happens because political leaders (who of course belong to one of the two parties) keep pounding home the message that this is the way it is supposed to be. The parties can maintain a hold on their power by staking out polar opposite positions on the major issues. Hate guns? Then you'd better be a Democrat. Pro life? Then you'd better be a Republican. The parties pander to the public's hot button issues, knowing people will join (and most importantly, donate cash) because the public will see this "I have no choice, if I want to support my 2nd Amendment right then I have to vote GOP." So what happens if you're pro-gun and pro-choice? Hmmmm. (Answer in my case: join the Libertarians.) Third-party membership is strongly discouraged through the message that the third parties are only spoilers. Look at the signals sent to the Green party in the 2004 election: "You can't vote for Nader, he doesn't stand a chance and a vote for Nader is as good as a vote for Bush." As a result, instead of the third parties gaining strength, they're kept stunted by a fear of the "wrong lizard" being elected. You know, from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, but I quote below: "The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people." "Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy." "I did," said Ford, "it is." "So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't the people get rid of the lizards?" "It honestly doesn't occur to them. They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates the government they want." "You mean they actually vote for the lizards." "Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course." "But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?" "Because if they didn't vote for a lizard, then the wrong lizard might get in." Tue, Jan. 24th, 2006 07:50 pm (UTC)
pokeyburro
Most straightforward way I can think of to break up a two-party system (other than have one party spontaneously implode due to insane leadership) is: instant-runoff or Condorcet voting. Let the people say who they'd prefer first, then second, then third, etc. Every voting system can be gamed - I think that was once proven mathematically. However, this would still at least break the current system's gridlock, I think. |